Return to Transcripts main page
INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENTS
Tibet Troubles; Zimbabwe Elections; Five Years in Iraq
Aired March 21, 2008 - 20:30:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FIONNUALA SWEENEY, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Fionnuala Sweeney in London. Welcome to CNN's INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENTS, where we examine how the media are covering the big stories.
We begin in Tibet and the challenges for news outlets in covering the unrest taking place there. Chinese authorities have been accused of obstructing international journalists as they sought to report on the crackdown. China, meanwhile, has launched its own attack. Here's John Vause.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: (INAUDIBLE) time and time again, police made it clear, no pictures, not now, not even here in the city of Shangou (ph), almost 1,000 miles from Tibet.
Closer to the unrest, roadblocks are keeping reporters well away. The Foreign Correspondents call to China says journalists have been obstructed by officials at least 30 times in Lhasa, Beijing, Shimin (ph), Chungdu (ph), and Ghanzou (ph) Province.
James Miles with "The Economist," was in Lhasa on a government approved visit when the violence erupted.
JAMES MILES, THE ECONOMIST: I think it's very likely that ten Chinese were killed during the rioting.
VAUSE: He also reported to CNN that by Tuesday, when his permission expired, he was told to leave.
MILES: I think they also probably felt that having me there was - helped to get across the scale of the ethnically targeted violence that the Chinese themselves have also been trying to highlight.
VAUSE: On Sunday, a crew from Hong Kong cable TV, hiding in the Tibetan capitol, managed to broadcast these extraordinary live pictures. Hours later, they were found and ordered out.
These are the only image China has sanctioned. Tibetans on a rampage in Lhasa. No sign of how Chinese troops restored order. And more recently, new video, showing calm has now returned. At the same time, Chinese officials have accused some Western reporters of bias.
"In some of your reporting, we can see the involvement of the Delhi (ph) click," he said. A similar allegation has been made by Chinese bloggers. In particular, accusing CNN of distorting this photograph, which didn't show Tibetan protestors throwing stones at a Chinese truck.
The photo was cropped because technically, it's impossible to include the crashed car on the left and the protestors on the right. But the picture was labled "Tibetans Throw Stones at Army Vehicle." And it's just one of many photographs which have shown Tibetans attacking ethnic Chinese, damaging Chinese owned businesses.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SWEENEY: John Vause reporting there. He joins me now via broadband from Changdu (ph) in China. And also with us, Karma Dorjee, the deputy director of Tibetan Language Services with Radio Free Asia. He is in Washington.
John, I mean, just how dangerous for you is it trying to get information there?
VAUSE: Well, to be perfectly honest, it's not exactly dangerous. It's just downright difficult right now. This is a country which has hundreds of thousands of security forces, which are being deployed. And when you think about the infrastructure of China, the road system is not great. Essentially, there's one road in, one road out to these towns. It just takes one roadblock to simply stop journalists from getting in.
And so, they've been able to control the population here for almost 60 years. So the payoff is that the Chinese authorities at least is that when journalists like us try to get into these places, which are - cause extremely long distances, it's next to impossible.
There has been some harassment. And I must say that my experience so far has been that the police have been firm. They haven't been rough in any way, but they've certainly made you understand that they are in charge. So there is no argument here, though (INAUDIBLE) discuss it in any of this.
And they'll just turn you around and they will tell you what to do. I've heard of people being tailed by police 100 kilometers. Others who have been detained for a number of hours. But my personal experience so far has been essentially told that this is the end of the line. You must turn back and go back the same way that you came.
SWEENEY: Karma Dorjee, with Radio Free Asia in Washington, you almost have exactly the opposite problem. You're trying to get news into the region. So how do you go about first getting the information out of the region, so that you can then get it in? How do you know that how many listeners you have, for example?
KARMA DORJEE: We have - it's a little different situation from other news organizations. In our case, we're having - they're doing programs. And we have been in contact with the - our sources and with the audience inside Tibet for a very long time. We have managed to build a kind of a relation or kind of a connection with the audience in the past about 10 years. And we have been reporting. And our listeners and audience inside Tibet. So they knew exactly how to reach us. So they are reaching us in different ways.
And sometimes, of course, directly, we have some programs, the Corning (ph) programs. So people call directly. And then they give us some clue. And then, of course, we call back.
And similarly, we have reporters all over the world, and particularly in India. And we have in Australia. And so these reporters also, they try to reach inside Tibet. And so we get information from a variety of sources from inside Tibet entirely because we have managed to build a credibility with the audience inside Tibet.
SWEENEY: John Vause in China, there are certain parallels with what took place in Burma. How do you see the situation unfolding over the next few days and weeks?
VAUSE: Well, there are a lot of similarities here. We've seen the monks on the streets. We've seen them being joined by (INAUDIBLE) veterans as well. And the information has been coming out much the same way through groups like Free Tibet and Tibets Group Center for Human Rights and Democracy.
There is a big difference here, though, is that Burma was - or Myanmar was a very much closed off society. Myanmar doesn't really care what the rest of the world thinks. China does. It's very much integrated into the world economy. It's got the Olympic Games coming up. And you know, that's one of the reasons why we are seeing these demonstrators.
And we will be seeing a lot more demonstrations. And this really is a dilemma for China right now. And I don't know how this is going to play out. On the one hand, it has its image, its reputation to think of. It has to worry about what the world will see in the lead up to the Olympic Games.
But the Olympic Games are only for two weeks in August. China is dealing with a much bigger problem here. If Tibet manages to rise up and seriously challenge Beijing's control here, then they have much, much more serious problems, you know, not just with the Olympics, but in other provinces in China, with the Wigas (ph), for instance, the Muslims in Sunjing (ph) autonomous region.
They were also demanding their own independence. And so, this could very well be the problem which Beijing is now facing, how much is too much, you know, cracking on the Tibetans and how much is not enough.
What's going to happen really? It's going to be very interesting to see what Beijing does to control the situation.
SWEENEY: Karma Dorjee, let me ask you. Do you feel that how the Chinese handle media interests, international media interests will determine how far this gets reported?
DORJEE: Yeah, definitely. As John reported earlier and then also you got - I saw a report recently, in fact, I think yesterday, a report given by the Reporters Without Borders, which is based in Paris. So they were reporting that they were instance of about - 40 instances in which the Chinese authority interluded the foreign journalists. And I'm sure the CNN is also one of the victims.
And there were many other, you know, the foreign tourists also. They try to report anything. So they would really harass and they would threaten.
So there are a lot of, you know, clamp down on the media. And of course, many of our sources also they are really worried and scared. But in spite of the situation, but still, they, you know - somehow they have managed to send us information.
SWEENEY: We must leave it there. Karma Dorjee in Washington with Radio Free Asia and John Vause in Changdu (ph), China, thank you very much for joining us.
Shock and awe, where were you when the Iraq War began five years ago? Correspondents share their stories when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SWEENEY: Welcome back. It was billed shock and awe. Five years ago this week, the U.S. led coalition launched its attack in Iraq. Bombs fell and the sky lit up over Baghdad, heralding the start of a battle that continues to this day.
Well, fast forward to March 2008, and we caught up with correspondents to share their experiences reporting the conflict then and now. I spoke to John Burns, the former Baghdad bureau chief with "The New York Times," Iraqi journalist Ahmed al Rikaby, and CNN's Michael Holmes. I began by asking Ahmed al Rikaby what he was doing five years ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AHMED AL RIKABY: Well, I was trying to bring some Iraqi journalists together to join a project called the Iraqi Media Network. Or Plata (ph) became the Iraqi Media Network, which later became the state radio and television in Iraq.
SWEENEY: So this was pre-planned for the post war?
RIKABY: Exactly. We started working on this project actually a year before the fall of Saddam Hussein.
SWEENEY: John Burns, where were you when the invasion began? And how have you found the difference? You've just come out of Baghdad now, but (obviously, it's a huge span of time to cover. But when you went in first, what was the situation you found?
JOHN BURNS: Well, I went in for the last months or so. Saddam. And as the war approached, a group of us met. We call ourselves the Gang of Four. I think we eventually were five or six to make what we thought at the time was probably the most fateful decision we'd ever have to make. And that was, were we going to stay past the point at which war became inevitable? Because we judged that if Saddam had left us alone until then, it had been because to harm an American correspondent would likely to speed the course to war.
But once the war became unstoppable, which is to say when Saddam refused the Bush ultimatum for Saddam and his sons to leave Iraq within 72 hours, our publishers, television executives in New York pretty unanimously agreed that it was too dangerous to stay.
We havered (ph) I think somewhat to the frustration of our employers until it became too late to leave anyway. It became more dangerous to try and leave than to stay, because they were attacking, robbing, imprisoning journalists who attempted to leave. It was a long drive across the border.
So we found ourselves there in real no man's land, not knowing what would happen. And of course, we had a grandstand seat for the beginning of the bombing.
In my case, they came for me, the secret police came for me about ten days into the war. Took 19 days for the American troops to arrive. And that probably was the most difficult moment of the entire process for me.
I'll spare you a detailed account of what happened. But basically, the fact that I had large amounts of dollars on hand probably spared me. That in the end, these thugs turned out to be not only cowardly, as we knew, but also venal. And they let me get away. And I spent the last 10 days of the war on the run until the American troops arrived. And they were my liberators, as well as then the liberators of Baghdad. I think it's been lost sight of since, but there's no doubt that when American troops entered Baghdad, the vast majority of people in Baghdad, indeed the vast majority of people across Iraq, including many Sunnis, welcomed them as liberators from their tyranny.
SWEENEY: And in fact, Michael Holmes in Atlanta, if I can recall correctly, you were among the American troops going into Baghdad. You were among the liberators, so to speak?
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, yes. We were sort of bringing up the rear, Fionnuala. We covered the start of the war. I was there with Nic Robertson and Christiane and others in Kuwait City. And then, around the time the Americans started their push on the capital, we all headed up. I went up with a convoy of Marines, the first MEF. And then, we actually, once the Americans had gotten into Baghdad, we left our escorts, if you like, and went in unilaterally.
And I remember, as John was saying, you know, you went in there to Furtow (ph) Square where the Palestine Hotel is. And there was a fair bit of jubilation. The statue had just been pulled down. And there was in that first few hours, particularly, a lot of jubilation.
But then I remember clearly over the next few days, the lack of policing went on. And the lack of involvement of U.S. troops in trying to keep a semblance of law and order really took hold.
I just remember visions of burning buildings all around the city, as the looters went through and destroyed things and stole things, and then set fire to the buildings.
But those initial days were very safe for us as journalists. I have photographs sitting on Saddam's statue in Furlow (ph) Square. We used to go to restaurants and the like and have a beer and report fairly freely, no flack jackets.
SWEENEY: John Burns, when did you begin to realize that things were going seriously wrong?
BURNS: When the troops stood by and acted in effect of traffic policemen instead of stopping the rioting, the looting. They were looting. And particularly by 4:00 in the afternoon of the first day when American Marines entered Baghdad to this jubilation and to flowers thrown at the tanks when we discovered that the only building they had orders to protect was the oil ministry. And I turned to a colleague of mine, John Anderson of "The New Yorker" outside that building. Many of the other ministries were already burning and said, "Say it ain't so."
Unfortunately, it was so. Before we as journalists become too condemnatory of the Pentagon and the Bush administration for their errors in planning for what came after, we should look at we - what we ourselves failed to do.
I think we accurately chronicled the tyranny of Saddam before the fall of Saddam. I think what didn't do was to explore as much as we might have done, despite all of the problems that there were under Saddam. And again, you can engage in any kind of indepth reporting because of the ever present reminders that secret police.
What we didn't do was we didn't really explore what (INAUDIBLE) that she was at (INAUDIBLE) of terror. Deeply traumatized fishered society of Iraq, which was right from the get go, a place where it was going to be almost impossible to implant American style democracy. And thus, made the mission in my view arguably beyond accomplished from the start.
Regardless of the errors that were later made, and there were many, I think that it may well have been a mission impossible from the start.
SWEENEY: And particularly for you, Michael, and very personal experience perhaps sort of the low lights of your time spent in Baghdad in Iraq?
HOLMES: Yes, well, yes, that was January 2004. Up until then, we'd been able to be fairly, what the military likes to call unilateral. We could drive around on our own and do stories, taking precautions, but not the sort of precautions we take now.
We were in soft skin cars in those days. We had only one armed guard. And he wasn't very well armed. And we've been down the hill. And we were just south of Makmadea (ph), outside of Baghdad. And we were attacked, our two vehicles were attacked by two vehicles. And you know, I have great clear memories of two guys standing on a sunroof, shooting AK- 47s at us with armor piercing rounds.
Our camera man Scott McGuinney (ph) was shot in the head, but lived. And of course, Yasser, my - one of our drivers and Duray (ph), one of our - my translator at the time, were both killed. And you know, I'll never forget the sight of their vehicle going off the road with the windshield red with their blood.
And that was a seminal moment, I think, not just for us, but for all media. And I remember meeting in the Palestine with all manner of media there. And everyone sort of saying, well, this has changed things forever really.
SWEENEY: I want to come to you in a moment, Ahmed. But just on that point, Michael, while you're talking about this. I mean, it begs the question why did you go back?
HOLMES: I have several reasons. First of all, I cared about the story. I also, and a lot of (INAUDIBLE), I didn't want to be - I was very close to Yasser and Duray (ph). They were friends of mine. And I was very close to our Iraqi staff in general. And it may seem trite, but I didn't want to be the Westerner who went away after an incident like that occurred, the sort of incident they were dealing with every single day and continued to this day, and be the guy who went home and didn't come back.
It was very important to me to come back, particularly that first time. And I've been back subsequently half a dozen times since. And had came out last month, in fact, from the most recent trip.
SWEENEY: As an Iraqi hearing international journalists describe their experiences, it must draw some parallels with your own experience. But presumably, much more heartfelt for you?
AL RIKABY: Well, I mean, I have - I was - in a very special position at that time. I wasn't in Palestine Hotel, but I was not far from Palestine Hotel. I was looking somewhere in Baghdad International Airport, making the first announcement, telling people that this is the end of Saddam Hussein.
My first words were "welcome to the new Iraq. Welcome to an Iraq without Saddam, without Uday, without Qusay." Early in - after the invasion or after the liberation of Iraq, in May, I started to notice that things are going wrong. And what kept me waiting most of the time is the promise that things will change. Things will change.
Someone - one of my American friends promised all the time that things will change, but then we came to a point where things actually are going from bad to worse. And I don't see any change at all.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SWEENEY: That was John Burns, Ahmed al Rikaby, and Michael Holmes speaking to me there.
Inside Zimbabwe, days before the presidential election. We speak to members of the country's media ahead of next week's vote.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SWEENEY: Welcome back. Voters in Zimbabwe go to the polls next Saturday. Observers say the election is expected to provide President Robert Mugabe with the toughest challenge yet in his 28 years of rule.
Like most foreign media outlets, CNN is banned from reporting within the country. So instead, we sat down with the group of Zimbabwean journalists and civil rights campaigners for their take on the poll. I spoke to Robin Kerner (ph) in Johannesburg.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think there's a chance that these elections in Zimbabwe will be free and fair?
ROBIN KERNER (ph): Certainly not. They're already profoundly flawed in terms of their conduct. Just two examples, the opposition candidates do not have access to the public media. So the only opinions heard across the country are President Mugabe's.
And with regard to accreditation, the state has taken over that role of accrediting both observers and foreign journalists.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The issue of foreign journalists is, of course, a concern to us because we're wanting - still waiting to know whether we're going to be allowed in.
But in terms of local journalists, I think the issue is particularly heartfelt, because Bryan, you've been banned.
BRYAN: One year ban. And I'm not supposed to be reporting for any media organizations. And it's particularly depressing. This is a very interesting reportable election.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's also concern about violence. In previous elections, it seemed as if there was perhaps more intimidation, more violence. Have things been as quiet as they appear from this side of the border?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, things have not been as quiet as they might seem. There is a lot of harassment, a lot of intimidation. And I would say it's a lot of subtle forms of violence that people are undergoing at the moment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So if somebody decides that they want to vote on the 29th, there's quite a lot of obstacles in their way by the time they try and make their mark. Just give me some sense of the logistical issues that a Zimbabwean is going to have to face?
KERNER (ph): The voting is only over one day. So there's 12 hours. And we don't really know how many voters that the pressure's going to be on. We calculate that they've got about nine seconds to do that, if they're going to include all the voters and the voting presses.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is this new provision that you've got to vote within a specific ward. And do you know which ward you have to vote in?
KERNER (ph): No, I don't. I haven't got a clue. And it's going to be difficult for me to find out. But.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?
KERNER (ph): Why? Because I've got to go and check the records and see where I have been moved to from where I voted previously.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is a real concern, isn't there? There seems to be a real problem with the number of polling stations, particularly in the urban areas. Am I correct in that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you are correct. And a lot of civic organizations have actually been appealing to the Zimbabwe electoral commission to ensure that they increase the polling stations.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, now let's bring up the issue of once the votes are in, is there any chance of one of the main three candidates getting a majority?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think we have three strong candidates, in my view. And I don't see any one of them being able to pull through.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 51 percent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 50 plus one percent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All indications are pointing in the direction of a run off. And interestingly, there was an opinion poll conducted by Mass Opinion Institute in the country, which gave (INAUDIBLE) 28 percent. President Mugabe, 20 percent. And Mkorn (ph), 8 percent. None of three candidates, as Makay (ph) indicated, is capable of pulling above 50 percent.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SWEENEY: Robin Kerner (ph) is speaking to Zimbabwean reporters and civil rights campaigners in Johannesburg.
Don't forget, you can log on to cnn.com/correspondents to see all or part of this week's show again. You can also view our archive, take part in the quick vote, and read the weekly blog. That' at cnn.com/correspondents.
That's all for this edition of the program. Tune in again next time for another look at how the media are handling the big issues.
I'm Fionnuala Sweeney. Thanks for joining us.
END
TO ORDER VIDEOTAPES AND TRANSCRIPTS OF CNN INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMING, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FROM LOCATED AT www.voxant.com
