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INSIDE AFRICA
Africa's Economic Situation
Aired June 13, 2009 - 12:30:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ISHA SESAY, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, and welcome to a special edition of INSIDE AFRICA. I'm Isha Sesay. On the program this week, we take you to Cape Town, where South Africa's new president has just hosted the 19th World Economic Forum on Africa. Over the next half-hour, a panel of African leaders will discuss the challenges they face in the midst of the global economic crisis, and the actions they're taking. Without further ado, here is our Robyn Curnow, to get the discussion rolling.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBYN CURNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: OK. I think we're ready to start. I just want to welcome your excellencies, President Kagame of Rwanda, President Zuma of South Africa. OK.
So let's talk about the challenges you two face in the 21st century, in the current global environment. What for you is the overriding challenge, worry, concern that you think are going to define at least the next year or your presidency, perhaps.
PRESIDENT PAUL KAGAME, RWANDA: For me, it concerns me a lot when I see Africa, and by that there is a fair share for Rwanda, in terms of these challenges, always involved in the debates -- there are debates that that go on about how Africa is marginalized.
But I tend not to emphasize that. Maybe we need to look at how we marginalize ourselves, too. So, what can we do to make sure that this does not keep us in this position where we feel globally we're not properly integrated, we're not players. For example, the current global economic crisis. People say, yeah, this is a crisis we didn't create in the first place, meaning Africa. But that does not carry the exact story. They look (ph) -- they say is, OK, not being a part of the cause of the problem worries me also. Is because it actually says you're not a player.
For example, again, people talked about the G-20. And, of course, Africa had some presence. One, of course, in the form of South Africa, which was there in its own right. Then you had one of the leaders on our continent, the prime minister of Ethiopia who also ably represented Africa. But represented Africa how? He was not providing -- meaning Africa was not through him at the high table, because this is a high table of G-20.
Really, they could have invited Africa or not. But the G-20 members were invited in their own rights. So, when can Africa have its own right to be at the high table, other than being invited from that position of weakness, with a borrowing hand (ph) instead of being a part of the problem, which means we are a part of the global relevance, and also being part of the solution.
PRESIDENT JACOB ZUMA, SOUTH AFRICA: That is very little that is said how you're correcting the source of the problem, and what people are doing so that it doesn't occur again. But if you talk about the solutions, given the fact that there are first world and second world countries, what are the solutions? Are the solutions designed to deal with those?
Because in a sense, the impact of the crisis is felt more heavily in poor countries, but they're not the source of the problem. What is it that we're doing? So I'm saying the leadership of today has more responsibilities to be able to articulate their challenges, to convince everybody, so that we begin to look at things differently and look at things in terms of how we relate to one another as countries, to appreciate that if we say the world is globalized and the problems therefore are bounded to be globalized. The solutions, therefore, must also globalize.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SESAY: While African governments contend with the global economic crisis, the continent must also confront a number of home-grown problems that threaten stability and hinder prosperity. What must Africa do to help itself? Robyn Curnow will ask our panel.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SESAY: Welcome back to INSIE AFRICA. Our panel of African leaders will continue their discussion in a moment, but first, we want to take a quick look at some stories in the news.
Royal Dutch Shell has settled a lawsuit filed in the United States accusing the company of crimes against humanity in Nigeria. The oil giant agreed to pay the plaintiffs, including the son of Nigerian playwright and human rights activist Ken Saro-Wiwa, $15.5 million The suit alleged that Shell was complicit in the 1995 execution of Saro-Wiwa and eight other activists. The group, known as the Ogoni nine, had been protesting the impact of oil exploration in the Ogoniland region of the Niger Delta. Saro-Wiwa's son says the results send the message to multinational corporations:
KEN SARO-WIWA JR., LAWSUIT PLAINTIFF: So, that sets the precedent immediately, the fact that this thing -- it took 13 years to go through the legal process, but clearly, before we started this, corporations felt they can almost operate with impunity, but now, I think, the legal landscape had changed.
SESAY: Shell says it tried to prevent the 1995 execution, and it calls the settlement "a humanitarian gesture." Ken Saro-Wiwa Junior says the money will fund development projects in Ogoniland.
It looks like Madonna is going to be a mother again. Malawi's highest court has cleared the way for the pop-star to adopt a second child from that country. A lower court had ruled the adoption didn't meet local legal requirements.
And Gabonese president Omar Bongo has died. He reportedly had been receiving treatment for cancer at a Barcelona hospital. Mr. Bongo was Africa's longest serving ruler. He was 73.
SESAY: OK, now, let's get back to our panel of African leaders as they discuss strategies for overcoming some of the challenges they're facing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZUMA: If you talk about conflict, for an example, if -- if in your country, you're not running things proper, your citizens are going to run to other countries. You are, in fact, without realizing, exporting the problem. And they become a burden of those countries.
Aren't we supposed to stop (inaudible) before it reaches that point? But of course, it is an issue of the African continent as the president was saying, of the collective voice to deal with the world. How do we deal with our problems? We're no longer colonies. We're free countries. And that's why our voice about the change in the world is very important, of the institutions that were developed and designed and crafted when we were not there. But since we are here now, shouldn't we have a say about adjusting and changing and transforming? So that there is fairness.
CURNOW: So, why then do younger African leaders have such a problem sometimes trying to criticize older African leaders? Particularly the ones that are perhaps may be root causes of some of these problems, or at least instrumental in putting stone walls up into moving some parts of Africa forward?
ZUMA: I think diplomacy must change. Too much diplomacy at times causes problems, in my view. Because we end up not discussing the issues.
CURNOW: You were trying to be too nice to each other.
ZUMA: That's the point. If we're too nice, it's not good. You've got to be nice, friendly, but deal with the issues.
If, for an example, we take a resolution on a particular problem, let us put timelines. Let us also ensure that the mechanisms to deal with those issues are clear, and the responsibilities are clear. And we should also say, if this does not happen, what happens as a consequence? Organizations then must act if it is a question of regional organizations - - they must be given the authority to act. If it is continental organization, it must be given the authority to act, which must be collectively the responsibility of all of us.
KAGAME: I think it should not be an issue of the older voices, the young or something. I think it's an issue of the wrong versus the right. And this has probably gone on.
(APPLAUSE)
KAGAME: This has -- these problems have probably been there for decades.
ZUMA: I think what we should add to the wrong and right is that the world had changed. Today we've got to stand on our own as a continent. If we have the history, we've got to refer to, and say, this is what get happened -- let us talk about it. One of the issues , for an example, will be that that period caused a lot of havoc in the continent, and some people might be thinking about if I move out, what will happen to me? I think it's an issue we need to talk about. That's why I started by saying, we need to be less diplomatic to deal with the issues as we understand them, and say, the world has changed. Therefore, let us do things differently, and do not emphasize punishment. For that's one of the problems that you might have. The (inaudible) saying OK, move out, but tomorrow we'll deal with you. Then we are causing a problem of somebody saying, why should I leave when I am still in power?
I think the leadership in Africa today must come very boldly and deal with these issues. It's not for our sake as leaders. It's for the sake of our people, for the sake of the continent.
(APPLAUSE)
CURNOW: So, basically, you're suggesting -- it's a very important point, because basically you're suggesting an honorable retirement plan for the -- for the despots of this -- of this continent.
ZUMA: If we come to that agreement, what's -- it might now necessarily need a retirement. The leader in the country may still be very much trusted by the people. It means changing the ways of doing things. If it includes the retirement honorably, that's one of the things, but I don't think we should put it as the only way out, because there are people who have been there who are able to change, who are able to see things, who are able to do things properly. So, the question of understanding that the world has changed, we've got to do things different.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SESAY: The panel had much more to say. We'll bring you more of the conversation when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SESAY: You're watching INSIDE AFRICA. Welcome back to our special edition on the World Economic Forum on Africa in Cape Town. Let's pick up where we left off with out panel of African leaders.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CURNOW: We are obviously -- we are not mentioning any names here, but I think .
ZUMA: Absolutely. And we mustn't.
(LAUGHTER)
CURNOW: What then is your response to the issues -- now, this is touching on it -- of, say, the International Criminal Court? Africans have been very prickly about it. There have been lots of mentionings of Western justice. But after the genocide, you know, the West was criticized for not doing enough. The ICC was brought on and created to deal with particularly this kind of environment.
So, say, in the aftermath of Sudan -- in the middle of Sudan, why -- is this precisely why the African leaders are so sensitive about prosecuting?
KAGAME: Every time if you create something and it creates an impression that Africa is being governed from outside, rather than from within, by the African themselves, then you have a problem.
For example, in my country, leaders -- a number of leaders, and really for political reasons, have been indicted by the justice systems of countries in Europe. If we contemplate where our own village (ph) judges would indict European leaders, and it's not because there is a shorter list of crimes that (inaudible).
(APPLAUSE)
KAGAME: That doesn't happen. So how does it become universal jurisdiction?
Now, let's come to the International Criminal Court. There are specific examples. First of all, they tell you, this criminal court works with national jurisdictions and says .
CURNOW: As a caveat, 30 African countries have signed the Rome Accord.
KAGAME: Yes.
CURNOW: Just -- just as a.
KAGAME: It is. It's very unfortunate.
(LAUGHTER)
KAGAME: It is. Because I also know that some of these countries signed that because they wanted to solve certain problems in their own countries. And this has nothing to do with the impunity: I'm not -- I'm not talking -- when the case of the President of Sudan came up, for me, the argument is not the wrong or the right, or the rights -- Bashir has been wrong or right -- it's also about how do we handle such cases equitably and fairly?
CURNOW: South Africa has signed the Rome Accord -- the Rome treaty.
ZUMA: Yes. It has.
(LAUGHTER)
CURNOW: Yes. So you .
ZUMA: We're not trying to say "I signed," but Africa should be encouraged to establish justice systems, accountable systems. That must begin to be the culture of how do we run our affairs. And I think Africa must face to that, to deal with it. If we were able to do so, I don't think we'll have this problem wherein the International Court has to come in. We'll be able to deal with our own issues.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SESAY: We'll have final thought from our panel after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SESAY: Welcome back to INSIDE AFRICA. We've been bringing you a spirited discussion of African leaders, moderated by CNN's Robyn Curnow. Let's pick up where we left off before the break.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CURNOW: We're talking a bit about Western perceptions and all of that stuff, and Africans. What does Obama's presidency mean for Africa?
ZUMA: I think it has brought hope, I think. Firstly, we all know that it is the first time in the United States that we have a black president, which I think is an important statement for a democratic country like the United States, because it says, I think for the first time, democracy has no color.
KAGAME: I think maybe Africans should pick more inspiration from that kind of thing. But we can pick inspirations from that to deal with our problems, and I think probably that will also help him if it is to help Africa to be able to (inaudible) when they should remember, none of us should be reminded, he is the president of United States, he is not the president of Africa.
CURNOW: I want to ask you guys one final question. What would you like to be remembered as, your greatest defining moments in terms of the way you led your countries? And more importantly, what of kind of leaders do you want to be remembered as?
ZUMA: Well, if there is nothing that I create of my own, then implementation of the policies of the organization, how did I implement them? And one of the critical issues, really, is how we were able to address the plight of the poor people, which is the bigger problem.
(APPLAUSE)
ZUMA: And how we participated in bringing about peace and stability in the continent, what contribution did we make? And how did we unite the people in the country, in the very country, so that they all understand they belong to this country, and this country belongs to all of us.
KAGAME: I wouldn't mind being remembered, but not for bad things, certainly.
(LAUGHTER)
KAGAME: In my own country, we deal with issues of poverty, we have dealt with issues of turbulent history, and the devastation of the country that has come out of that. So, our efforts have been towards building a new nation of Rwanda that values its people, irrespective of their background. So if we can unite our country and develop it, make it free and prosperous, I would be happy to leave behind that contribution. Indeed, the issue of legacy is important, so that the good you have contributed to stays much longer than you serve.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SESAY: Certainly, a frank and fascinating discussion there from major players on the continent.
And there we must leave it. Be sure to tune into INSIDE AFRICA next week for a brand-new episode. For Robyn Curnow and the whole INSIDE AFRICA team, thank you for watching us..
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